Tonal is as indescribable as nagual, tonal reflected by reason and nagual by will

[archive-trtrt]

“To make reason feel safe is always the task of the teacher,” he said. "I’ve tricked your reason
into believing that the tonal was accountable and predictable. Genaro and I have labored to give you the impression that only the nagual was beyond the scope of explanation; the proof that the tricking was successful is that at this moment it seems to you that in spite of everything you have gone through, there is still a core that you can claim as your own, your reason. That’s a mirage.

Your precious reason is only a center of assemblage, a mirror that reflects something which is outside of it. Last night you witnessed not only the indescribable nagual but also the
indescribable tonal.

“The last piece of the sorcerers’ explanation says that reason is merely reflecting an outside
order, and that reason knows nothing about that order; it cannot explain it, in the same way it
cannot explain the nagual. Reason can only witness the effects of the tonal, but never ever could it understand it, or unravel it. The very fact that we are thinking and talking points out an order that we follow without ever knowing how we do that, or what the order is.”

I brought up then the idea of Western man’s research into the workings of the brain as a
possibility of explaining what that order was. He pointed out that all that that research did was to
attest that something was happening.

“Sorcerers do the same thing with their will” he said. "They say that through the will they can
witness the effects of the nagual. I can add now that through reason, no matter what we do with
it, or how we do it, we are merely witnessing the effects of the tonal. In both cases there is no
hope, ever, to understand or to explain what it is that we are witnessing.

“Last night was the first time that you flew on the wings of your perception. You were still
very timid. You ventured only on the band of human perception. A sorcerer can use those wings to touch other sensibilities, a crow’s for instance, a coyote’s, a cricket’s, or the order of other worlds in that infinite space.”

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Archived from Reddit · score: 6 · upvote ratio: 100% · flair: Shifting Perception

[archive-TechnoMagica]

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/16356/is-it-impossible-for-a-human-brain-completely-to-understand-the-human-brain

Even an A.I., crafted by the mind of man, as an offshoot, would also be so constrained…even if more expansive in scope and perspective.

But intelligence is not consciousness. Intent is the secret sauce. And we can only ape that with algorithms…artificial intention.

[archive-danl999]

I see this as tied to “losing the human form”, possibly only because I get assaulted with that in private chat.

It’s the usual. People find the “bad ass” things from the books, like 3rd attention, and pretend they experienced that.

Losing the human form is a common one. They can ponder how alien they are becoming from time to time, to make themselves feel better. And then brag about it too.

But in fact, losing the human form is WAY out there. Carlos was quite advanced in one of the later books, and still hadn’t lost it. He’d clearly achieved Silent Knowledge, been in the double, and even passed the 4th gate.

But still, didn’t lose the human form.

I suppose that’s because our human form was created around the illusion that the Tonal is explainable and predictable.

To lose the human form, all that has to unravel.

I dare to say, something I find a little ugly starts to present itself.

The body as “planets”. The “planet of the liver”, and so on.

You have to start to look honestly at all of your perceptions, instead of glossing over 95% of them.

Then I suppose (haven’t done it myself), you unravel the feeling that it’s a fixed part of reality, and unchangeable.

In some ways, it’s probably like being in a dream, becoming lucid, and then having to battle concern over the dream story. It’s still in your mind, and you still worry about key players in the dream you were trying to help.

It’s only when you turn and take a step away from what you were doing in the dream, that full lucidity comes to you, and you realize how meaningless it was.