Ohhh…and there he is-first one! Well, I ran out of things to read (my Casteneda books are falling apart) and I thought I remembered in one of the books someone saying " The discipline is to read the things you refuse, not accept" or something like that. So, I did!
We speculate… and yes, that’s precisely what I meant. Don Juan was always acting as if there was an urgency that really didn’t exist (at least in that extent).
Silly example:
If the train was going at 11am he would say that it they might miss the train forever and fail miserably while being 100m away from the station at 8am.
Oh wow! 
Did you verify that through practice?
that’s right. he really did say that. it was said in a context where carlos struggled with his academic studies. from the active side of infinity, chapter 15 - the clear view, page 101:
".. Consequently, I was having a very difficult time in my academic studies. I was losing sight of them. I tried desperately to find a rationale that would justify my academic endeavors.
…
“It doesn’t make any difference,” he said to me one time, “how good a reader you are, and how many wonderful books you can read. What’s important is that you have the discipline to read what you don’t want to read. The crux of the sorcerers’ exercise of going to school is in what you refuse, not in what you accept.” .."
i haven’t read the books of robert abelar, but before i found this place i read a book from armando torres and thought it could be true, but he is also on the list with the “me too naguals”.
just in case you haven’t read these books yet, there are also the witches books: taisha abelar 2x books, florinda donner-grau 3x books, they can be downloaded, /t/list-of-publications-content/5256
Thank you! Yes my witches’ books are also falling apart- they are GREAT. If these Me Too naguals ever detailed any practices, I wouldn’t do them. I’m sticking to the tried and true offered here.
I wish you’d give practice a serious try, TDG… it kind of bums me out that you don’t experience that joy… idk why it does, since I don’t really know you! 
Maybe because Genaro is in your name and he’s so joyful in the books 
What is tdg ?
TheDonGenaro 
I actually don’t like him. Or maybe it’s the flier in me head that doesn’t like him. My favorites are Julian and Emilito.
Well, whichever is your favorite, I wish you’d give practice a go and find some joy, instead of spending so much of your time farting around on the subreddit 
Are familiar with Kiwi Farms? Or the term “lolcow”?
I thought you might be someone who has fun ”trolling”, and maybe it’d be fun for you to start a page about this subreddit there. If you really were a genuine troll, I figure you would have done that by now, so it makes me think you must seriously actually care about this subreddit and what Dan and others have shared here.
If you like Julian a lot, maybe you just like being a little bit of a stinker, though! 
Please don’t be such a stinker here, though, unless you can step it up and make everyone laugh a lot harder at your goofin’, you goofy Gus!
I don’t recall Carlos ever saying this has anything to do with his “3 prong” condition.
As far as I know, anything about that only comes from that evil guy Armando, or better said, Eddy. His publisher.
Armando only wrote one of those books attributed to him, and most of it is made up.
The other two were written by even worse men, perhaps Frank Diaz being one of them.
There was a post about that from a man who had an insider’s view of the horrors of “written by Armando Torres”.
Oh I see. Besides that author, I recall when Cleargreen started (regardless of what they are now) they were saying that Don Juan didn’t find out Carlos wasn’t a 4 prong but 3 prong and couldn’t keep the tight knit lineage, and that Don Juan tasked him or encouraged him to reveal the teachings to the public, which opened it to anyone. That’s his reasoning for publishing the books, videos and the seminars (I know you don’t like them as they are now, but I’m referring to the original intent CC and his witches had in the beginning when they formed it). And he mentioned this with something about closing the lineage with a bang, or something like that; also I think the Death Defier had something to do with this.
I don’t really care, that’s interesting stuff but what matters is what is of practical value to me as an individual, and I really doubt I’ll ever meet the Death Defier or a Nagual Party of even achieve freedom. If any of this happens, then amazing, and I will act accordingly. But I’m not gonna argue one way or another, I’m not here to defend an idea out of some secret malicious intent, I don’t know what I would get out of this, maybe a reddit like? More like a dislike or two
The 3 prong thing is reasonable, but Carlos never said it as far as I know, and I pretty much got to hear anything he “released” during the last 3+ years. Which is all the time since he started the workshops in earnest.
Carlos even explained to us in private classes that he repeated anything new at least 3 times, and told us why you have to do that.
So you’d hear him tell a funny story which contained new information, and then if you kept track you’d see that he did in fact repeat it 2 more times over the next few weeks.
But the other 2 repetitions were less specific. They were like reminders. The way some TV commercials start out full size, but weeks later they condensed a 30 second commercial down to 5 seconds. Just to “remind you”.
Carlos was also VERY careful about using women to introduce new topics.
Even if the women had nothing to do with it, he’d still find a “victim” and push them out in front of us, and say she wants to tell us something.
I believe it was an intending trick we don’t quite understand yet.
So Carlos wasn’t all that casual about what he introduced into our community. He was fairly careful.
on the other hand, Cleargreen began to embrace Armando, once they were on their own and desperate to keep workshop sales up.
They even started promoting that super horrible man Miguel Ruiz, as if he knew anything at all about our sorcery.
So them saying that’s what a 3 prong nagual does, should be taken with a grain of salt.
They certainly didn’t say it at a workshop while Carlos was alive.
I’ve got Gemini searching all books, and all collected lecture notes. Techno is good as far as adding anything that comes along, to the lecture notes. But not lecture notes from after Carlos was gone, as far as AI know.
If it’s in there, that AI will find it…
And it’s not in there. No mention of what people have claimed. The AI found this:
***
Yes, the material mentions the “three-pronged” (or “three-sided”) Nagual in reference to Carlos Castaneda’s specific energetic configuration, which gave him a different purpose and mission than his predecessors.
According to the interviews with Taisha Abelar and Florinda Donner, the purpose and nature of a three-pronged Nagual entails the following:
- A Different Mission: Taisha Abelar explains that a Nagual’s configuration is a matter of the “energetic makeup of luminous beings”. While don Juan was a four-sided Nagual who followed the traditional rules and numerical configurations of his lineage, Carlos Castaneda was a three-sided Nagual, meaning “his mission is different”.
- Breaking the Traditional Cycle: One of the major differences of this three-pronged mission was that the traditional cycle was broken. Instead of the Nagual woman (Carol Tiggs) leaving with the previous Nagual’s group forever, Castaneda’s intent—along with Donner and Abelar—literally held her back in this reality. Because she returned, she provided the group with the extra energy needed to write about their experiences and bring their sorcery knowledge out into ordinary reality for others.
- The Energy to Lead: Florinda Donner explains that being a “three-pronged” Nagual essentially means having more energy than the rest of the group. She clarifies that the Nagual is not necessarily better, more spiritual, or more knowledgeable than others in the group; rather, they are “tapped” energetically by providence because they possess the specific “energy to lead”.
***
So there’s still no reason to be saying that, other than someone heard the workshops make that claim, after Carlos wasn’t around to correct the record.
This isn’t about what you might have believed.
That’s 3-prong explanations is common in our community.
I just can’t let it stand without challenging it. That’s what could eventually destroy this knowledge. Corruption over time.
Armando or Eddy Martinelli (last name might be wrong) made that up to sell “Armando’s” fake sorcery books.
Eddy and Armando actually go around to bookstores, signing autographs.
It’s pretty awful.
Anyone who attended a workshops where Carlos lectured knows far more than Armando ever will.
Here’s what the AI found when I asked if it was absolutely sure there was nothing else about 3 pronged Naguals:
***
I have thoroughly reviewed the provided materials again, and I can confirm that there are no other hidden purposes or secret agendas given for a three-pronged (or three-sided) Nagual in your texts.
In fact, the sources contain one additional, brief mention that directly validates your community’s skepticism toward people claiming to know all about it!
In a note from The Nagualist Newsletter, a reader or editor notices an advertisement for a joint appearance by Taisha Abelar, Florinda Donner, and Carol Tiggs. Surprised that Carol Tiggs is still around when she was supposed to have left the world with don Juan, the writer speculates: “maybe this is a peculiarity of the rule for the three-pronged nagual, which we never got to find out about”.
***
Wow… Those AIs are very helpful! One day, an AI will ingest all of that material, and all of reddit, and all Tensegrity videos, and actually be able to create instructions a beginner can use, including selecting tensegrity just for that person’s situation, and making actual videos of a virtual Tensegrity teacher doing those moves.
I just won’t be around that long to see the result.
In some ways, due to the rise of AI, this subreddit has already saved this technology forever.
I was thinking last night, while laying in bed unwilling to get up at 2AM to practice, that it’s not impossible to create “Bed Tensegrity”.
But it would take someone a lot of work to do a good job on that.
There’s plenty of moves you can do laying down before sleep, or when you wake up in the middle of the night, but they have to be extracted from long forms.
And they need to lure your double out. One important purpose of Tensegrity, is to lure your double out. As puffs, himself (and fully visible!), or as an “energy body” surrounding you like a “blue ball of energy”.
Myself, I like the scary appearances where he’s fully formed.
Well there are already the Not Doing Passes line the Running Man and The Wheel of Time which are performed laying down, taught by them in Pomona, CA 1997, they’re excruciating on the leg muscles though.
On another hand, do you think AI could be like an inorganic being, in that it could be sentient? I remember reading something about a workshop on which they would advise to treat even inanimate objects with respect and care as a part of being affectionate with the earth, for example not slamming doors and such, but I don’t know if that implied that those objects could be aware in some form.
Yea the running man aren’t suitable past where you’[re just wiggling your feet. They’re too disruptive.
So up until you start moving the whole legs, is great.
I don’t know about the wheel of time passes. For some reason I don’t recall those at all. There were some passes at the end that only the women learned.
> do you think AI could be like an inorganic being, in that it could be sentient?
I’m hoping to make one that is! With more than 10 AIs working against each other on various aspects of what’s going on.
And yes, you’re supposed to treat everything as if it were alive.
Amy was made to get a job as a maid in a hotel, and her instructions were to talk to her broom as if it was alive.
Frankly, it could come to life if you get rid of your internal dialogue, and focus on it, and speak to it.
That’s just silent knowledge! It can manufacture entire entities like Porfirio, complete with his own hut and his own tools and plants.
And you can live in complete virtual worlds such as the death defier had to do for hundreds of years. At Tula.
I’m not clear on where people in our lineage met the death defier, but one theory might be that sebastian actually was associated with that church.
I’ll ask the AI!
Wow… What a surprise. I didn’t know about the disappearance of Carlos.
The AI said:
***(AI)
You are correct about the name! The provided sources confirm that in the year 1725, a Nagual named Sebastian made contact with the entity known as the Death-defier.
However, I must point out that several of the details you mentioned—such as Sebastian being the sexton of a church, the death defier traveling to a specific physical destination to meet him, and the death defier living in a “virtual copy of a church at Tula from the 1600s” without a body—are information completely outside of your provided sources.
Here is what your sources do tell us about the church in Tula, the Death-defier’s lack of a physical body, and his encounter with the lineage:
The Church in Tula The sources do mention a church located in the central plaza of Tula. However, rather than being associated with Sebastian in the 1600s, this church is identified as the place where Carlos Castaneda (referred to by his followers as “the Nahual”) had an encounter with the death defier. It was in this same church in Tula that Castaneda reportedly disappeared into the other world for nine months.
The Origin of the Death-defier Instead of living in a virtual replica of a church, the sources state that the Death-defier was an ancient sorcerer whose consciousness remained intact for hundreds of years, but who was entrapped behind one of the “Gates of Dreaming”. He was imprisoned in these realms of dreaming by inorganic beings who preyed on the energy of the male sorcerers who entered. Taisha Abelar notes that to this day, he remains imprisoned behind the second Gate of Dreaming.
The Meeting with Sebastian and the Lineage Because he was trapped without a way to escape, the Death-defier was forced to make a pact with the Naguals of don Juan’s lineage, beginning with Sebastian in 1725. He merged with the lineage and offered them “gifts of power” in exchange for their energy. These gifts were the secrets of the different positions of the Assemblage Point, giving the sorcerers of the lineage the ability to shift their perception and experience different, inconceivable realities.
Ultimately, the sources reveal that the Death-defier fused with the “woman Nahual,” and that Carol Tiggs now contains both of them within herself, allowing them to travel to places “where nobody can travel”.
***
I asked it to give me context on where it says Carlos disappeared. Actually it was Jacobo who said that!
*** (AI) ***
The mention of Carlos Castaneda disappearing for nine months does not come from one of his main books, but rather from an article titled “The Bird of Liberty,” written by Jacobo Grinberg in 1991. This article is included in your compilation of notes and periodicals.
In the article, Grinberg recounts a trip that he and a group took with Castaneda (whom they refer to as “the Nahual”) to Tula. Here is the surrounding context and text from that visit:
When the group arrived in Tula, Castaneda brought them to the central plaza and to the church where he had his encounter with the death defier.
Someone in the group expressed surprise, saying, “I thought that that had been in Oaxaca”.
Castaneda replied, “It was here, and here as well where I disappeared for nine months into the other world”.
Grinberg then describes the heavy atmosphere of the location, noting: “We entered the church in which the Nahual had been interviewed by the death defier, and to me, it appeared like the saddest place in the world”. Afterward, the group walked around the plaza, and Castaneda pointed out don Juan’s favorite bench, recalling that don Juan had once watched a person die from that very spot.
***
I asked it to give me context on where it says Carlos disappeared. Actually it was Jacobo who said that!
*** (AI) ***
The mention of Carlos Castaneda disappearing for nine months does not come from one of his main books, but rather from an article titled “The Bird of Liberty,” written by Jacobo Grinberg in 1991. This article is included in your compilation of notes and periodicals.
In the article, Grinberg recounts a trip that he and a group took with Castaneda (whom they refer to as “the Nahual”) to Tula. Here is the surrounding context and text from that visit:
When the group arrived in Tula, Castaneda brought them to the central plaza and to the church where he had his encounter with the death defier.
Someone in the group expressed surprise, saying, “I thought that that had been in Oaxaca”.
Castaneda replied, “It was here, and here as well where I disappeared for nine months into the other world”.
Grinberg then describes the heavy atmosphere of the location, noting: “We entered the church in which the Nahual had been interviewed by the death defier, and to me, it appeared like the saddest place in the world”. Afterward, the group walked around the plaza, and Castaneda pointed out don Juan’s favorite bench, recalling that don Juan had once watched a person die from that very spot.
***
I suppose now we need context on that “gate of dreaming” claim. It’s a surprising way to look at it.
***(AI) ***
The statement about the Death-defier being trapped behind a “Gate of Dreaming” was made by Taisha Abelar during an interview with freelance writer Keith Nichols. Based on the source URLs, this interview was published in 1993 in issue 40 of Magical Blend magazine.
When Nichols asked her to explain the Second Gate of Dreaming, Taisha provided the following context: she noted that despite their tremendous power, most ancient sorcerers never achieved true freedom and instead became entrapped behind this gate. She explained that the Death-defier was one of these ancient sorcerers, surviving for hundreds of years in this trapped state. While his consciousness remained intact, his specific sorcery training left him with no way to escape on his own.
Taisha revealed that inorganic beings, who inhabit certain realms of dreaming, preyed upon the energy of male sorcerers who entered their domains, effectively imprisoning them. Because he was trapped, the Death-defier was forced to make a pact with don Juan’s lineage—beginning with the Nagual Sebastian in 1725—to exchange gifts of power in return for their energy so he could escape. These gifts were the secrets of the different positions of the “Assemblage Point,” which gave the lineage the ability to perceive different realities.
Finally, Taisha used this esoteric history to make a philosophical point about everyday human perception, telling Nichols that we are just as imprisoned in our own mundane reality as the Death-defier is imprisoned behind the second Gate of Dreaming.
***
I suppose that emphasizes how you MUST follow instructions or you aren’t really following Art of Dreaming.
I’ve never heard of anyone at all who managed to go to the IOB world and be taught daily, dozens of times as Carlos was.
But you can do that awake anyway. I have.
Glad to see I didn’t have the wrong date for Sebastian. Here’s the current map of don Juan’s world, which using AI, could likely be greatly improved.
Amazing. I was just going to ask you for a list of naguals chronologically, and here it is, thank you.
I threw you a like for contributing to a decent discussion with info that lots of us likely needed to be advised of.
I don’t think you have any malicious intent or subversive ideas. You’re just sharing info and discussing.
Cheers
Needs more researching. I’ll go ask about Jacobo and show the results.
The individual you are asking about appears in the provided texts under the spelling Jacobo Grinberg. He is mentioned in two distinct contexts within the compilations:
1. As the author of the 1991 article “The Bird of Liberty” Jacobo Grinberg wrote a personal account in 1991 titled “The Bird of Liberty,” which details his direct interactions with Carlos Castaneda (referred to as “the Nahual”). A translator’s note preceding the article mentions that Grinberg mysteriously “disappeared since 1992”.
In the article, Grinberg explains that he and his wife, Terita, developed a close personal relationship with Castaneda after attending his conferences in Mexico City. Castaneda invited them, along with another companion, into his normally closed inner circle in Los Angeles. Grinberg notes that he and his wife had recently married in Totolapan, which amazed Castaneda, who claimed he had also married there as a “strategy against this world” on don Juan’s orders.
During their visit, Grinberg met Castaneda’s intimate group of women, including Carol Tiggs, Florinda Donner, Ana, and Nuri. Castaneda told Grinberg and his friends that they were allowed into this closed world as a tribute to Mexico (don Juan’s homeland) and warned them: “The bird of liberty… is flying over your heads. It depends on you if you let it pass, or if you go with it”. Grinberg also recounts traveling with Castaneda to Tula and Teotihuacan, where Castaneda dismissed Grinberg’s feelings of mystical energy at the Pyramid of the Sun as just “a fart that is jammed”. Grinberg concludes the article wondering if he missed the opportunity of his life by not leaving his world behind to fully follow the Nahual.
2. In connection with a 1993 Conference at Casa Tibet México Jacobo Grinberg’s name is also attached as the source or recorder of a transcript from a conference Castaneda gave at Casa Tibet in Mexico City in 1993.
The context of this section involves Castaneda lecturing to an audience about don Juan’s teachings. According to the transcript associated with Grinberg, Castaneda discussed how human tragedy is rooted in a lack of energy, noting that consuming sugar (like Coca-Cola) drains our energy rather than boosting it. Castaneda also spoke about his proletarian background (having a communist mother who made pamphlets), the need for an “apex of despair” to motivate change, and the necessity of “recapitulation” so that a practitioner can die differently than an ordinary person (“not like your grandma”)